First Website Improvements Released!

News updates about the Prohashing pool
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Steve Sokolowski
Posts: 3780
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:27 pm
Location: State College, PA

Re: First Website Improvements Released!

Post by Steve Sokolowski » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:12 pm

Ewil wrote:
Foxx wrote:
Steve Sokolowski wrote:1099 forms have to be issued to users; there isn't any other way we are willing to operate. ...

... Before you get worried, these forms are not a statement that you owe a certain amount of tax, and we are not withholding earnings. This is standard practice for practically any business transaction, like when Chick-fil-a purchases chicken from its supplier. It is up to users to provide accurate information so that they can receive the documentation necessary for filing their own taxes. ...
yes, but you are also required to file any 1099 you issue, with the US authorities.
This^^. It doesn't matter what the miners stance is on it, merely FILING it puts the miners information on a red flag considering the stance the government has regarding cryptocurrency - which changes as often as the wind does, at this point.
AppleMiner wrote:So be illegal miners, declare yourself as international miners. No data will be required and nothing will be mailed to you.

If you want to lie to the pool then I would guess the pool just can't be held responsible when the IRS comes back and asks them later why they didnt send you the required 1099 forms, and they can show, well this person opted in as an international miner so we weren't required, if they lied on the form its not our fault. I think its more an IRS liability. If you dont want to admit your US and get caught they have deniability they tried to comply with the data they were given by you.

But if you have in excess of 5 dozen ASICS I am guessing you are making some money, or paying some bills?
Not sure how you are moving that much around, hosting company and paying for it in crypto, but eventually you may want to cash in some of those coins. Do you think the bank wont notice 10K deposits or 4K electric bills coming and going monthly and start to investigate or ask about taxes?
I think coinbase turns in for US customers accounts that over 20K in use per year? they had a court case but did they start to volunteering that info for 20K and above to IRS since then?
The fact you think that currency generated in ones own home, using ones own equipment, should be taxed by the government, highlights your mentality - unfortunately. If I grow food in my own backyard, out of seed I bought - should I be taxed for having it? If I provide a service of working in someone elses farm to harvest their own food, and receive some in return for my hard work - should I be taxed on it?
If your answer is "yes, but of course" to either of those questions, I feel sorry for you.

I do not have 5 dozen ASICs. I said between myself and several friends & connections I have, we had that many running here. I have passed this information onto one of them whom is a moderator on a discord of 15k+ miners (among other servers), and has been doing mining since you could do it on a regular CPU. He laughed and said this place will be out of business before the end of next year, *or* operating with so few users, it'll be a ghost town. He's also shared this link & information to his many connections. The immediate responses are to vote with their money... international or not, many will not be mining here any longer once those changes go into effect, in order to send a message - in fact, some have already deleted prohashing as their backup pool.

@Steve, you are violating the very essence of what cryptocurrency is supposed to be - a decentralized, UNTRACEABLE currency that has no oversight, except within its own market by supply & demand. There will be literally nothing stopping the US government from giving you a year or two to operate, and then either demanding or directly seizing, via warrant, your entire blockchain wallet history, since you'd be so kind as to provide usernames, real names, addressed, etc via your system, and digitally signing & tracking every transaction on all the available blockchain networks, by your business history and bookkeeping. They can do this via your IRS filings, or by suddenly deciding everyone who deals in crypto is a criminal by association (as other countries have done) and since you're the sort of person to keep immaculately accurate books, would have zero issue tracking down every single person via their account information or IP and jailing/fining them/confiscating property.

I understand you are trying to run this in a new fashion that hasn't been seen before, as a business system - but you're putting many carts before the horse, and trying to bend over backwards to appease the very system that cryptos were put in place to go AGAINST. Maybe moving to Canada or another country would be beneficial for retaining your customer base, because I guarantee if you polled, via email, every one of your users if they are staying or leaving after this goes into effect - the results will blow your socks off, and not in a good way.
While I understand your concerns and respect your opinion, I want to give my opinion that this might be a little bit exaggerated.

We aren't making a big moral stand in favor of governments or taxes or the US or any of that. We don't need social security numbers, despite what some have said. And I'm sure most people would say that it's highly unlikely that federal agents are going to start busting down doors of people who mine some cryptocurrencies. We're not going to send mountains of data to FBI agents.

We're simply filling out some paperwork that is required by law. It's going to take about 1 week to implement the fields, another week to collect the data, about $1000 to mail the forms, and then we'll forget about it all until next year. There will be no other changes. I think that it might be worth taking a step back and considering that it's possible this is not as big a deal as you think it is right now.
pavvappav
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:19 am

Re: First Website Improvements Released!

Post by pavvappav » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:15 pm

gnode wrote:Steve and Chris, you need a different lawyer. The guy you hired is in left field on this one. We are just using your software with our own equipment and you pay us nothing, we pay you a fee. Like a cloud service such as Amazon Web services. Amazon doesn't send out 1099 to subscribers.
Thats the thing -- we don't pay a fee. We give pro hashing no money for their service. It would be different if Steve sold a hashing service for $19.99 a month for up to 5 miners. That would be a service.

What we have here is a hashing company buying our hashing power from us (Pay Per Share). If they don't find coins, we still get paid. If they find more coins than average, we still get paid amount (assuming non-solo). If you find a Litecoin, you don't get anything extra. When the Bitconnect coin stuff went down, they had to roll back earnings because of the slippage. We were incorrectly credited with shares that were unminable due to Bitconnect becoming Proof of Stake.

Just like UBER takes a cut of the fares paid to it by the people selling their driving services to UBER before paying the drivers, Prohashing takes their cut of earnings.
gnode
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:44 pm

Re: First Website Improvements Released!

Post by gnode » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:17 pm

To repeat myself, Steve and Chris, you need a different lawyer. The guy you hired is in left field on this one. We are just using your software with our own equipment and you pay us nothing, we pay you a fee but it isn't even dollars so you have to declare its "value" on your taxes.
User avatar
Steve Sokolowski
Posts: 3780
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:27 pm
Location: State College, PA

Re: First Website Improvements Released!

Post by Steve Sokolowski » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:19 pm

pavvappav wrote:
Steve Sokolowski wrote:
pavvappav wrote:
According to https://www.irs.gov/individuals/interna ... ent-aliens it sounds like non-us residents who use prohashing will have to pay taxes to the IRS and you will be reporting their earnings to the IRS. If this is correct, you must issue 1099 forms to all users -- US residents or not. This inclusion appears to occur because Prohasing is _in_ the US. Failing to do so may be seen as assisting in tax evasion.

EDIT: Add quote to which I'm replying.
So far our plan is not to issue the forms to international customers. While that might change if we hear otherwise, I haven't been advised that international customers are affected.
Understood. I included the links to IRS regulations to cite my sources. With penalties for failing to report income paid to independent contractors upwards of $250 per incident/account, I'm certain that Prohashing is going to make sure everything is on the level.
Customers who locate mining equipment in the United States will have to receive a 1099 form. Customers who have no connection with the United States - who live elsewhere and who have their miners elsewhere - are not affected.
centar
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:47 pm

Re: First Website Improvements Released!

Post by centar » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:23 pm

jimbo207 wrote:
pavvappav wrote:
1099 forms have to be issued to users; there isn't any other way we are willing to operate. While I don't think that many people will leave, I'm sure you can understand that it would be better for the business to fold than for us not to issue these forms. We'll be requesting addresses and names beginning in a few weeks.

There will be an option to declare yourself an international customer, in which case no form will be required.
According to https://www.irs.gov/individuals/interna ... ent-aliens it sounds like non-us residents who use prohashing will have to pay taxes to the IRS and you will be reporting their earnings to the IRS. If this is correct, you must issue 1099 forms to all users -- US residents or not. Failing to do so may be seen as assisting in tax evasion.
Except no 1099s need to be filed as no USD is transferred between Prohashing and its customers. Crypto is not legal tender, its ones and zeros, valued by the buyer at time of sale. If someone gives me stocks, the IRS need not be concerned until the time of sale, at which time I am taxed on the difference of the sale price and the cost basis.

And yes, I said customer, not independent contractor. The brothers have always referred to us as customers in the forums here. While that may be semantics, last I checked we pay 5% of our coinage to Prohashing. I dont 1099 my customers, we claim their payment - expenses as income. Which, as I see it, is all PH need do. Coins sold - expenses = income.
I think this is the relevant answer here. 1099s should only be used in scenarios where actual legal tender is paid out to indpependent contractors. As Prohashing is not "paying" customers, but rather facilitating the act of mining, I don't believe 1099s should even apply. I think you need to re-engage your lawyer on this because I don't think they really understand the nature of your business.
gnode
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:44 pm

Re: First Website Improvements Released!

Post by gnode » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:31 pm

Ask your lawyer how he will handle the lawsuit for false reporting to the IRS when you send somebody a 1099 which says you paid them $1000 but you have no proof of payment since you never sent them a check for $1000.
pavvappav
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:19 am

Re: First Website Improvements Released!

Post by pavvappav » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:35 pm

gnode wrote:Ask your lawyer how he will handle the lawsuit for false reporting to the IRS when you send somebody a 1099 which says you paid them $1000 but you have no proof of payment since you never sent them a check for $1000.
If you are issued a official document, such as a 1099, that you feel is false, you must report it via a 3949-A or form 14039. You use 14039 if you suspect your the victim of identify theft.
jimbo207
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:12 am

Re: First Website Improvements Released!

Post by jimbo207 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:47 pm

well, considering customers as independent contractors is false, so I guess there is that. I wont be on board at that point so we wont have to worry about a 3949-A from me. I hope for everyone's sake a new tax lawyer is retained by the brothers as this is all unnecessary.
buster442
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:14 am

Re: First Website Improvements Released!

Post by buster442 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:56 pm

Steve Sokolowski wrote:
Ewil wrote:
Foxx wrote: yes, but you are also required to file any 1099 you issue, with the US authorities.

While I understand your concerns and respect your opinion, I want to give my opinion that this might be a little bit exaggerated.

We aren't making a big moral stand in favor of governments or taxes or the US or any of that. We don't need social security numbers, despite what some have said. And I'm sure most people would say that it's highly unlikely that federal agents are going to start busting down doors of people who mine some cryptocurrencies. We're not going to send mountains of data to FBI agents.

We're simply filling out some paperwork that is required by law. It's going to take about 1 week to implement the fields, another week to collect the data, about $1000 to mail the forms, and then we'll forget about it all until next year. There will be no other changes. I think that it might be worth taking a step back and considering that it's possible this is not as big a deal as you think it is right now.
You say you have to send 1099 to anyone mining in the US, but then say you don't need social security numbers. That makes no sense, try looking at a 1099 https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1099msc.pdf. The form requires the recipients TIN (social security number for individuals). You might also look at the Exceptions in the directions for the 1099:

Exceptions. Some payments do not have to be reported on
Form 1099-MISC, although they may be taxable to the
recipient. Payments for which a Form 1099-MISC is not
required include all of the following.
Generally, payments to a corporation (including a limited
liability company (LLC) that is treated as a C or S
corporation)
. However, see Reportable payments to
corporations, later.
Payments for merchandise, telegrams, telephone, freight,
storage, and similar items.

Anyone registered with their business does not need a 1099, and 1099's are not required for purchases of merchandise. The IRS has already ruled cryptocurrency is an asset (merchandise).

I agree with the other user, get a better lawyer. I've run an S corp for 18 years, you're getting bad advice.
Last edited by buster442 on Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
pavvappav
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:19 am

Re: First Website Improvements Released!

Post by pavvappav » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:56 pm

On a tangential note -- It is probably best to also remind people here that the 1099 being issued by PH will also form the basis to assess self-employment taxes in addition to income taxes. Self-employment tax estimates must be paid quarterly. The self employment taxes are in addition to your income taxes and can be up to 15.3% up to the first $126,000 combined earnings and only 2.9% after that.

These taxes should have been paid quarterly; however, by the statements on the forums I suspect many are going to be caught by unaware of this. The year is not over, and you may be able to avoid higher fines and interest charges by making estimated payments for the year at this time by using IRS form 1040-ES (Don't panic -- its much easier than the normal 1040). Link for convenience: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040es.pdf
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