Automatic bot miners on the pool??

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CSZiggy
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Automatic bot miners on the pool??

Postby CSZiggy » Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:32 pm

Just wondering...has Vance or Constance run any type of analysis on the Cherry-picking miners/automated pool miners?

I know they used to follow the LIVE COIN STATUS, which seems to NOT be live data, and use that to auto mine the highest profit coins. Now they seem to be tapped into a feed that isn't shown on the main site, as I still see 10+ auto users swapping to highest coins but now they swap before the profit price on the "LIVE" coin status is even being displayed on the websites scroller.

Unlike in the past, I would guess there is adequate power on the servers now to handle all the extra waste with room to spare so the overhead to the servers is likely not an issue. But by allowing it, is the pool losing money? Gaining more? Any ideas?

BitcoinScrypt pops up, and its listed at 144.00c while the next lowest coin Rabbitcoin is only worth .3106c
That's 450X the profit. So even if 450 shares found are stale for every 1 non-stale it still pays as much if not more.
ASSUMING that the price listed is actually what it is going for. Without confirmation on how old that data is, or how many blocks of that coin in question have been found since the price was updated, are the users being PAID that amount listed on the LIVE COIN STATUS? Or with that pricing data coming from in the past, are they mining a coin they THINK is worth 450X more than is actually being paid out by the pool?

Mining for 1 min and making 1$ is nice, and then the pool gets its 5%.
But if the data is that far out of whack are they really mining for 1 min and only making $.001 because a block was found, the price dropped but reading the LIVE COIN STATUS they still think they are making 450X what they really are? If Chery-picking was just outright banned, would they be forced(if they even bothered to still mine here)to mine autopool like all the rest of the sheeple and be content making $.07 per minute.

From the pool's perspective...wouldn't operators like to have 5% of the .07 instead of the .001?
Or has this never been looked into because those people are earning 5X more already than the daily expected 1MH/s payout says so the 5% from them is already more and killing the ability to cherry pick would hurt the pool's profit? Just seems like an awful LOT of waste going on the system, when all you see is a white wall of BITCOINSCRYPT and a ring around it and STALE at the end. All those work-restarts hammering away on the system...for a profit that may or may not even still be there based on old data.

In keeping up with the transparency, would also be nice to see miners made for the day broken down by algo. I've always wondered how the breakdown of payouts for non auto-pool is. A static cherry-picker is NOT apart of the autopool correct? Their numbers/profits are NOT included with AUTOpool expected and payouts right? If they were they would really slant the numbers one way or another and we've been promised many times that those numbers are JUST the autopool people, so if you set a static coin whether mining PPS or SOLO you are NOT included with those figures. Could you add those figures? ALL PROFITS MADE BY ALGO? Maybe break it out a bit more...ALL SOLO SCRYPT...ALL STATIC PPS SCRYPT ...and the AUTOpool numbers we already have.
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CSZiggy
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Re: Automatic bot miners on the pool??

Postby CSZiggy » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:21 am

I mean....REALLY?

Image

2,585.0508c compared to 8.7761c

Whats 300% profit between friends? Just a wall of grey STALES up and down the screen.
Did anyone make ANY money off of that when it happens? Or is that just a waste...of hash....of electricity...of profits for the pool and those miners?
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Steve Sokolowski
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Re: Automatic bot miners on the pool??

Postby Steve Sokolowski » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:15 am

I think you have a few misunderstandings here.

First, the difficulty of these coins is very low. YOu can see in your examples that the difficulty of CryptoClubcoin is 7. With an expected block time of 60s, this network is being mined, on average, by a single L3+. The amount of money the network can contribute to the pool's daily earnings is about 0.01%, or less than $5.

Second, these coins have very thin markets. In some cases, the entire order book is less than $100, with most of the buy orders being at 0.00000001 BTC. While this case no longer exists so I can't examine it, it's possible the reason no miners were assigned to this coin is because mining more than a few blocks would result in the bottom falling out of the market.

Third, If one L3+ miner will process blocks at 60s, then assigning a group of just 10 miners will reduce the block time to 6s. If these miners have a work restart delay of 2s before they start hashing at full speed, then a third of their time is wasted doing nothing. We've found that miners look at their hashrate graphs and place a strong emphasis on hashrate, even if they lose a few cents to have a higher hashrate, and therefore avoid these circumstances where a few pennies can be made at the expense of a 33% reduction in hashrate.

Finally, we may have had hundreds of blocks already mined that were awaiting confirmation, and we knew that selling those blocks would crash the market down to below LTC profitability.
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GregoryGHarding
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Re: Automatic bot miners on the pool??

Postby GregoryGHarding » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:35 am

there used to be a time where mining "pick a out of target block and mine it into oblivion" would reach tremendous benefits. this was due to a bug in prohashing that caused miners to be paid in its previous difficulty bracket, and not the low difficulty bracket it was at at the time. prohashing has sense long fixed this bug (about a year ago). these miners are not actually making what the profitability reads it as
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Steve Sokolowski
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Re: Automatic bot miners on the pool??

Postby Steve Sokolowski » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:04 am

GregoryGHarding wrote:there used to be a time where mining "pick a out of target block and mine it into oblivion" would reach tremendous benefits. this was due to a bug in prohashing that caused miners to be paid in its previous difficulty bracket, and not the low difficulty bracket it was at at the time. prohashing has sense long fixed this bug (about a year ago). these miners are not actually making what the profitability reads it as


No, miners earn whatever the profitability is listed as. The problem is that people rent hashrate from cloud services and the blocks come once per second so 99% of their hashrate is wasted on stale blocks.

If they connected a single L3+ to this Cryptoclubcoin, then they would actually earn that amount of money for the first minute, until a block is found. Then the difficulty would increase and they would find themselves making less money, perhaps less than litecoin.
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GregoryGHarding
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Re: Automatic bot miners on the pool??

Postby GregoryGHarding » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:53 am

i remember last year you announcing you fixed a bug related to these low diff spikes and being paid for the high difficulty share when in fact it was a low difficulty share, once this was fixed, the profitability did not match the profitability displayed on the main page. thousands of dollars would be made in seconds of popping these coins that were way over their target time, resulting in a group of low diff blocks being solved and awarded the high diff value. i beleive ziggy was here at that point, he may have heard this announcement, maybe i am wrong, but support tickets from me and others led to the discovery of the bug
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CSZiggy
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Re: Automatic bot miners on the pool??

Postby CSZiggy » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:29 pm

Greg is correct, I was here, and have been following this and I too put in tickets about this issue. But that was when the LIVE COIN STATUS was being updated in REAL TIME. Since then the pool has introduced a delay in the release of the data that is used for the payout profitability, resulting in a group of low diff blocks being solved and awarded the high diff value until that data is updated, effectively putting the error back in?

CSZiggy wrote:Just wondering...has Vance or Constance run any type of analysis on the Cherry-picking miners/automated pool miners?
So would that be a no? Just wondering if a few hours of research into it might help the pool's profits some. Maybe a fresh set of numbers or a new pair of eyes.

Steve Sokolowski wrote:No, miners earn whatever the profitability is listed as. The problem is that people rent hashrate from cloud services and the blocks come once per second so 99% of their hashrate is wasted on stale blocks.
100% non-stales @ 8.7761c = 8.7761c
-VS-
1% non-stales @ 2,585.0508c = 25.850508
So they DO get paid 3X more for mining the top coin?

So that whole time they are earning that since that is what is shown on the "LIVE COIN STATUS" page? Doesn't seem like the profitability updates as fast as the blocks are found or the price changes. What then is the limited factor? The block time to confirm before the price re-adjusts? Or the frequency the price gets queued to get an update from the exchanges? Or the refresh time of the "LIVE COIN STATUS" profitability page?

My question was, can the pool ever sell those coins on an exchange to re-coop the cost they were paying out at the time those coins were mined.
Or is this a loss for the pool when you go to an exchange and the price you paid is a LOT less than what was being paid out to mine them?

If litecoins are selling for $100 on exchanges, and it pops up as $300 profit to mine them on the LIVE COIN STATUS then doesn't the pool sell them at $100 on the exchange and lose money in the deal? Should there be some sort of check on the pool to not pay 3X more than a coin will be worth when its selling time? Keep track of the profitability being paid out for each coin for the last 10 updates, and when a new profitability is computed for that coin that falls way outside the average, do a re-compute once you get updated pricing before releasing the new updated profitability for that coin? Retain the previous values or toss out any skewed data so it doesnt cause a coin to be paid excessively more to mine than the coin will be worth in 2 minutes time?

Steve Sokolowski wrote:If they connected a single L3+ to this Cryptoclubcoin, then they would actually earn that amount of money for the first minute, until a block is found. Then the difficulty would increase and they would find themselves making less money, perhaps less than litecoin.
So they can connect 100 L3+ to this, as the price doesn't update in real time and make that profit until the pricing on the charts shows the new updated price? So as long as they flop every 1 minute or once the pricing on the page updates, they will always be making more for the coins than the pool could ever sell them for?

Making 5% fee on an extra 3X mining profit seems nice for the pool....not selling coins on exchanges for 100% of the 3X paid to mine them seems like a net loss. Cutting the loss on the selling of those coins, and increasing the payout for everyone else on the pool MIGHT actually close the payout gap some other pools advertise to the point where its more profitable to mine here and you get all the users and hash you could ever want?
subseaguru
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Re: Automatic bot miners on the pool??

Postby subseaguru » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:06 pm

so PH just dumped the BTCS port?
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Steve Sokolowski
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Re: Automatic bot miners on the pool??

Postby Steve Sokolowski » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:07 pm

subseaguru wrote:so PH just dumped the BTCS port?


BitcoinScrypt had a fork that was announced less than 24 hours before it occurred. This was not adequate notice and caused the loss of hundreds of dollars. We decided to reevaluate this coin in light of the unreasonably short release period from the developers. This was a massive problem that cost a large amount of money.

Chris has a lot of other tasks to do first, so he will address the task after the coming server maintenance. If he judges that it is unlikely that an incident like that will occur again, then he will give the coin one final chance, on the grounds that any future fork will result in permanent discontinuation.

In any case, it will take a minimum of one week to download the latest blockchain from the new fork and more time to index it for the block explorers.
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CSZiggy
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Re: Automatic bot miners on the pool??

Postby CSZiggy » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:35 pm

Much much better Steve, thank you.

The bots are no longer sticking on the top coin and mining it for over 2 mins with the old pricing data.
After 1 or 2 found blocks the profitability seems to re-adjust a ton faster now on the LIVE COIN STATUS
It also appears to limit how much hash can be added to coins, so I haven't seen the page of stales appear down the screen each time a coin pops up at the top. A few jump on it, and before it can take off and get going, it adjusts and pops down the chart then off the top 10 list. The payout for the coins is also decreasing as found down the found blocks page: from .20 then .13 then .05 then .002 so they aren't making that top .20 payout for the next 20 found blocks. I'd be curious now if just mining in the autopool pays out better than constantly flipping and spinning tires round and round not getting any traction.

Now the exciting part will be to see how much the autopool users on the pool, no longer making up for the profit/money lost by the cherry-picking bots, make in additional profit percents per day. Hoping there is enough of a payout percent increase to bring in more customers and hash for the pool. If the prices for coins gets back up to where it was 2 weeks ago and profits are close to what I normally make at other places I look forward to re-testing and hopefully mining on this pool.

Keep up the good work.
Happy Turkey day brothers.
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